Ethical Persuasion For Therapists w/Patrick Van Der Burght

Ethical persuasion helps clients reach a decision without pressure, guilt, or manipulation, and it works just as well in marketing as it does in the therapy room. We break down how people actually decide, why “no” often means indecision, and how to use persuasion science to increase follow-through and trust. 
• persuasion versus manipulation and why choice matters 
• using behavioral science to reduce overwhelm in sales conversations 
• Daniel Kahneman’s System One and System Two decision model 
• why many prospects do not say no but avoid deciding 
• three-question ethics filter for marketing and offers 
• why beautiful websites are not automatically persuasive 
• seven principles of ethical persuasion: reciprocity, liking, unity, social proof, authority, consistency, scarcity 
• practical reciprocity examples and the difference between a gift and a reward 
• strengthening authority without sounding boastful, including credentials cues 
• using similarity to amplify social proof with testimonials 
• using natural scarcity ethically and avoiding fake urgency 

Patrick's Resources: https://ethicalpersuasion.com.au/free-influence-persuasion/

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*Intro/outro song credit:
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Transcript

Ethical Persuasion And Sales Guilt

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In today's episode, I had a chance to sit down with Patrick Vanderbert, and we talked about ethical persuasion, which was an incredibly fascinating way to think about sales and sales conversations and help people reach a point of decision making without manipulation or without feeling icky. We're truly just helping them get out of their own way so that they can move forward and make decisions that are right for them. It's a fascinating conversation, and I know you're going to pull a ton of value out of it. My name is Craig, and I'm the owner of Daisy Financial Coaching. Our team is on a mission to make your therapy practice permanently profitable. If you own a solo or group practice, we're here to help you build a business that creates more time, makes more money, and serves more people. This is the Therapy Business Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Hi, Patrick. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing? Great, and thank you very much, Greg, for inviting me. I'm always very excited to share insights about ethical persuasion. And I remember the first time this was introduced to me, and I just couldn't believe it how simple this actually was and how powerful. And when I, you know, let's say do a workshop or a keynote with people, I can see it in the audience. I see the eyes getting bigger. Like, are you serious? Is this how it works? And so, whilst we can't see our audience today, uh I'm imagining people sitting there uh all intrigued and those eyes getting bigger. So thank you for putting me in that position again.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, absolutely. When I when you reached out and I heard that just that term ethical persuasion, it it really piqued my interest because I think you know, with sales specifically, uh a lot of us and therapists and physical therapists out there sometimes feel guilty. It's because I think sometimes we can link that word persuasion with manipulation. Uh, and so I think that's a challenge. So tell me about that uh this ethical persuasion thing, and even just maybe we just start with us as humans making decisions. The people we're trying to talk to, deciding whether they want therapy, whether they want to hire us or not. That decision-making process, uh, I think you were telling me you've you've dug into that and kind of looked at the the science behind it. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, no, no. Actually, I'm I'm trained in this. As you know, I'm a business partner of Dr. Robert Gialdini, who wrote that famous book, Influence, that's behind me, seven million copies, 48 different languages, considered the best business book of all time. And so I'm a trainer with him. So um, yeah, we're well well trained in that area. But before we go there, um, yeah, let's let's tackle that ethical part of persuasion and that manipulation. Because you're right, a lot of people when you when they hear the word persuasion, they think manipulation, as in we're trying to change somebody's mind. Well, there's quite quite a difference, actually. Manipulation is about giving someone no choice, right? We want them to do what we want them to do and give them no out. Where persuasion is actually about giving people choices. And uh, one of my colleagues at the Chaldini Institute has a nice way of putting it. When you persuade someone or convince someone, it sounds a bit more friendly if you want, um, you're you're encouraging to them to make a decision that comes from within them. And so to give you a picture of what that shouldn't look like and what it what it does look like, if you have, let's say if you're the boss and you have employees and you let's say stand over them and say, you should do this, right? Then your employees will probably do what it is you asked, right? As long as you're standing there watching.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Right.

Persuasion Versus Manipulation

Authority Cues That Boost Follow-Through

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Right. But as soon as you leave the room, they might not continue that behavior. When you persuade someone, the decision comes from within them. And so then when the the cat goes away, sort of a thing, the mice don't play because the decision they keep going with that behavior. So from a therapist's perspective, um, this is of course important in terms of, I mean, you are running a business, and you know, if you feel guilty about sales, I would argue that you're in the business of helping people or saving people. Um, you would do them a disservice not to communicate properly to them that this decision in front of them is an important one that they want to move forward with. But um you you want people to find you and start working with you, right? So that's from a sales perspective. But once they're working with you, you also, I mean, you know, as a therapist, you and and for those listening, I did about two years in the in neutropathy. So I've got a uh and I've got another business with is also in complementary health. So I'm um I've got a bit of a connection with you all. Um, but when you finally they're communicating with someone about what they should do, could be, you know, a nutrition regime that they should follow or lifestyle changes or that sort of stuff. You're giving this recommendation, and how often does it happen that people don't follow through? They're not doing the behavior that you want them to do, right? You could be a physiotherapist and explain people how to do exercises that will allow them to have mobility into the future. But how many people do not actually do the exercises at the frequency that you recommended or for the length of time that you recommended? So that is also persuasion. You also want to be effective there in communicating what they should be doing, and um I all this stuff is based on research and science, by the way. Nothing you get from me is based on my gut feeling, right? It's all backed by science. And I can give you an example, I don't know the exact percentage, but um there's an instance where physiotherapists had um a lot of problems trying to get their patients to follow through on the exercises, right? And they worked in a hospital and they um uh yeah, um everybody with doctor is you know, most people in the public know, oh, there's so many years study associated, and it's difficult to become a doctor. So just the title doctor comes with a lot of authority, and people, you know, let's say listen more. But with a physiotherapist, they don't have that same sort of feeling, even though there's also years of study associated to that. And so there's this problem with a lot of people not following through with the exercises. And so the um consultant looked at the situation and they were recommended, every physiotherapist in that clinic was recommended to bring in all the certificates that they had worked so hard for, or copies of that, frame them, and hang those certificates up in the room where people would be explained what their exercises were. And I can't remember the exact percentage, but I think follow through with the exercises increased by 30 or 35 percent just from hanging up their certificates. Now, that's not manipulation, right? It's just making people aware that the person giving you this information has spent a lot of time studying and knows what they're talking about. Now you can try and say that to people. Hi, my name is Patrick, I'm your physiotherapist. Let me give you 35 reasons why you should listen to me today. But that's just not going to work because socially that's not acceptable. That's taken as boastful. Oh, you're up yourself, right? And so we need to find socially acceptable ways to convert to bring across that level of authority. And so that was a nice example how through a practically costless exercise of displaying um signs of authority, the exercises were followed through uh much more. Um, but yeah, with with ethics, we're very passionate about that. You could absolutely use persuasion science in an unethical way. But thank goodness, research shows that unethical use might produce short-term results, but it tends to produce long-term disaster. Um, meaning when you lie to people, when you deceive people, you're gonna get found out, right? In the cycle of business. And so when people figure that out, they're not gonna return to you, right? Right. And we know you know a happy client might tell one or two people, but an unhappy client tells 10, 10, 20 people, right? So especially now with social media, the the backlash of being found out for unethical behavior can be very swift and it can destroy a personal or a company brand in days, right? So we don't want to do that. And research shows that ethical use of persuasion produces short-term and long-term success. It actually builds strong, loyal relationships, and so we absolutely want to use this in an ethical way. And then the question often asks is well, what then is ethical? Because there could be things that you are already doing that might not actually be ethical. And that means that you're a little bit on a slippery, slippery slope, a little bit risky there. So we have three questions that we sort of ask, they're not foolproof, but it's a good initial filter. First question is Am I telling the truth? That's pretty simple, right? Of course, if I'm lying to you, chances are what I'm doing is not ethical. And then secondly, am I not um importing anything into the situation? Am I not exaggerating anything? Um that's the second question. And the third one is if people did say yes to me, if they agreed with what I'm proposing, um, would they be happy with it? Would they come back to me in the future? And if the F answer to that is no, then chances are what we're offering is also not ethical. So that's a nice sort of filter. And so it's not a bad idea to maybe look at some of your lead generating efforts or you know, your your pitches of getting people into your clinic. Um, you know, does that pass those three rules? And if it doesn't, then maybe it's time to replace that for something that's a lot more safe and effective.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, that's that's great. And so it even goes, so what you're saying is it even goes beyond just the sales call and the client engagement. It's it's in our marketing efforts, it's in our branding, and it's probably in our website. Is that right? That that's the filter, that's when persuasion begins. Massive, massively, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

And interestingly, with websites, you know, especially web designers, bless them, right? They make beautiful websites, but beautiful is not persuasive per se, right? Just conveys quality. Um, but everybody's familiar with the concept of A-B testing, right? You make a different version of the same page, half of the people get this one, half of the people get that one, and you see if you get more engagement on something. The problem with that is that you need to take time to figure out if that alteration produces a result. You know, you might say, hmm, we have a blue button here. What if we change that blue button into a green button? Do we get more clicks?

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Right?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

It could be tests, but now you've got to wait three months to see if that works. And sort of as an industry standards, out of all that A B testing that is done around the world, only 10% produces an improvement, which is an enormous waste of time. Um, where if we use behavioral science, um, then we can produce improvements in about 60-65% of the A-B testing, let's say. Uh so yeah, it definitely comes back there. And it also comes back, but it comes back whenever you're trying to um convince someone else or reach a goal when somebody else is involved. So it also uh applies with, for example, employees, um, you know, uh working with the government, getting grants from them, for example, or the city council. Uh it also works with your children, right? I mean, wouldn't we all like get an 18-year-old to clean up their room, right? You have to be persuasive to do that. And so, yeah, your ability to be persuasive is critical.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yes, that's that's really powerful how it stretches into all areas of life and business. Um, and I imagine you know, a lot of us are are using persuasion without even realizing it because I think that's just the nature of of what we do. You know, I'm thinking through all my emails that I send out trying to persuade technical essentially people to schedule a consultation with us to see if we can give them some help. And so uh I love that. Now you have some universal principles of persuasion, is that right? I think um a handful, seven things that you that you basically are are these guidelines for persuasion? They sounds like they go across every area of life and business. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct.

Three Questions For Ethical Marketing

Why Websites Fail To Persuade

SPEAKER_01 13:04

And um, and I'd love to go through them and maybe share some insights that your audience can use straight away. Um, but maybe it would be prudent for us to just touch on how decisions are actually made. Do you think that might be useful? Yes, please. Yeah. Okay, cool. So I'm gonna lean on the work of a um uh a professor called Daniel Kahneman, who unfortunately died two years ago. Uh, but Daniel Kahneman was a professor in psychology and uh was a behavioral scientist, and he won a Nobel Prize in 2002 in economics, which is a bit unexpected, right? Normally you get a Nobel Prize for making an extraordinary contribution to that particular field. So, what the heck does a behavioral scientist come up with that has such a big impact on economics? Well, a lot of his research is about decision making, and decisions shape economics. So that's where the link is. So basically, Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize for disproving a popular belief that old economics had, old economics thought human beings are logical, rational creatures, and we would therefore use logic and reason to formulate our decisions. And that's wrong. And that's what Daniel Kahneman demonstrated. So when it comes to decision making, he uses relatively simple terms, so able to relate that to you and your audience. Um, when it comes to decision making, your brain and your audience's brain, when I say audience is meaning as in you know it doesn't need to be when you're standing on stage, it's the recipient of your message, right? Could be your staff member, could be somebody exposed to your lead generating efforts, could you be your children, and that's your audience, right? You and your audience, when it comes to decision making, have two parts to the brain, right? System one and system two. System one is the let's say intuitive part of the brain, right? It works fast, it works outside of our conscious control, and it therefore makes decisions automatically. Um and we use that for everyday decisions, but it is error prone. And so system one works largely on shortcuts. Uh, one of those shortcuts, for example, is expensive equals good. Right? We've learned from experience that if we spend more money on something, chances are that what we get is of better quality, lasts us longer, better suited to purpose. And so when we're faced with the decision or with a decision that we don't know that much about, and you could even say, you know, like goodness, if I'm if I'm looking at getting you know a surgeon for something or a therapist for something, I might even think, oh, hang on a second, this person charges$40 an hour, that person charges$120 an hour, right? That that rule, that shortcut might give me the perception that the other person is going to do a better job, right? We're familiar with that. So in a situation where I'm looking to make a decision about something I don't know anything about, price could give me an indication of what might be a good decision here. If I just spent a little bit more than I was planning to, I'll probably have done the right thing here. Chances are I've picked the one that was better for me. And you know what? That's probably right. Because most of the time when you spend more money on something, you get something that's better. So it's very tempting to take these shortcuts because it allows me a path to a quicker decision. The alternative is, and let's let's you know turn it into equipment. Let's say you're you're looking to buy a piece of equipment for your clinic. And whilst you know how to operate it, you don't know the technical specs and what's important in terms of durability and that sort of stuff. Now, you could go away and you could study that particular, let's say centrifuges or something, right? You could walk away and go study that and then come back four months later to make your decision, but you haven't got the time for that. So in that moment, you might go, you know what, I'll just spend a little bit more and then I'll probably done the right thing. And then you move on to the next decision you need to make about something you know nothing about. All right, so that's an example of a shortcut. Another shortcut is if a lot of people are doing it, it must be the right thing to do. Right? We follow the crowd. We don't actually like to stand out, except in romance, which is funny, but that's a different story. Um, as in that we do want to stand out and be unique. Um, all right, so that's another shortcut. So let's let's say system one. Fast, unconscious, automatic decisions, largely based on shortcuts. The shortcuts are not always right. Sometimes that's more exp something that's more expensive. It's still rubbish, right? Sometimes it doesn't work. Of course, sometimes when a lot of people are doing it, it can still be the wrong thing, right? So but most of the time it works, and so we follow these shortcuts.

unknown 18:20

All right.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

On the other side, we have system two. System two is the let's say the logical, rational part of the brain. This works slowly, it is conscious thinking, and it takes a lot of effort to run system two. Professor Daniel Kahneman actually called it the lazy controller. It doesn't actually want to engage. The brain's quite happy for system one to make the decisions as long as no red flags go off. But system two is more reliable because it looks at all the information and makes an educated decision, let's say. So, you know, it is more reliable. Okay, great. Um, now Daniel Kahneman demonstrates in 2002 that 90%, that's 9-0, 90% of our decisions are made by system one outside of our conscious control and automatically. Later research says that that is now 95%. So this is increasing. So this brings up a couple of questions. So, first of all, why is this percentage increasing? Well, that has to do with our attention span. In the 80s, we used to have an attention span of 20 minutes. Um do you, Craig, do you have any idea what the attention span of the famous goldfish is supposed to be?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Uh I know uh it's very short, but I don't I don't remember the actual attention span.

Indecision And The Fast Yes Path

SPEAKER_01 20:34

That's all right, it's nine seconds for the goldfish. Our attention span is now seven seconds. Or worse than the goldfish. We've been beaten by the goldfish, yeah. Um, and so what that means is that or what what we can learn from this with Daniel Kahneman is that when we sit somewhere and we think, okay, how am I going to convince someone who's never been to my practice? How am I gonna convince them to pick up the phone and ring us, or to fill in this online form to go on our newsletter, or you know, respond to us when we're at a trade show or something or an exhibition. How am I gonna do that? But when you're sitting there contemplating that, you're using conscious thought. So you are using system two then. And system two has the habit of coming up with arguments, reasoning that would require system two and the other person to process that information, and they don't have the time for that anymore. And so when we come with, you know, uh we do a better job than anybody else, and um, we've uh got this quality equipment, and uh, we're we're we work environmentally friendly, and you know, all these sort of logical, rational reasons, we're overloading our audience. We're actually making them more uncertain, and they then decide not to make a decision. And so, out of all the effort you put in, out of all the lead-generating efforts you put in, about uh, you know, all the initial appointments that you might have, right? I mean, the hope of a first appointment is people come back for a second appointment, right? Your effort to get somebody to come back for a second appointment, your effort to, you know, get your staff to do as you asked, you get a certain amount of yeses, as in people agree go along with you, and a certain amount of no's. And we would argue, and we've seen this long enough, that out of all those no's, they're not actually no's. A large percentage of them. Much larger than you would imagine, were indecision. People decided not to make a decision. And so you took that as a no. And so if we only give people pieces of information that allow their system one to make a decision, the shortcut, like expensive equals good, or hey, if a lot of people are doing it, it must be true. Then we allow them a quicker path to a yes decision if it's within them. Right? So, and we can see masses of improvements from that. I can give you a quick example, which is uh sales-related T-Mobile, a big telecom company in the United States and Europe. Um, they were selling phone packages on their website, and they were in the wrong order, according to you know uh the psychology behind it. And so they were advised to change the order on their website, right? I mean, you might be um, you know, um a message therapist or something, and you have packages, right? We have a two-hour session, a one and a half hour session, and a one-hour session, sort of thing, and you put those on your website in a certain order, top to bottom, left to right. And T-Mobile had done that as well. You can imagine they have a big marketing department, right? And they were in the wrong order, and so they were advised to change the order. And as a result, the top-of-the-line package that they were selling, sales increased by 34.4% by making a change in the order. So this can have a big, big impact. So, does that does that help you?

Seven Principles Of Persuasion

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yeah, that helps a lot. That makes a lot of sense, and it's fascinating just the the idea of it makes sense of how we can almost overcomplicate it just because of our thinking, and then what we're pumping out into the world is overwhelming people. And I and I've definitely seen that. And uh, you know, even in our efforts to try and simplify our messaging and simplify what we do, uh, I'm sure still we're we're probably overcomplicating it beyond what is necessary.

Reciprocity And The Gift Mistake

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah, and the painful reality is that there were so many, let's say, yeses on the table, right? They were yours to have. Had you just communicated what your audience wanted and needed to hear from you, but you didn't, and so you're losing a lot of that success, that competitive advantage, that cooperation, that loyalty. You're losing it was yours, but you're losing it by not actually knowing that there is a science to how people make decisions. So, shall we dive into some principles? Please, I would love to hear them. Yes. All right, cool. Um, so this is the exciting part or the the uh the enabling part. So there are seven universal principles of persuasion. Um we call them universal because they work in all languages and in all countries and all cultures, which is really important now, right? Because our cultures are intermixed and it's also much easier to do uh business with people in other countries. I'm sure some of your audience do online consultations with people in other countries as well. So this is something that works everywhere. All right, so seven principles. Um for those watching, I've got them on the screen uh behind me, uh, but let's start on the top. So reciprocity is one of those. Now, all these words you've heard before, right? But you probably don't know what the activators are of these principles or what the um amplifiers are, what makes them work better. So reciprocity works on the rule that we want to give, we have a tendency to want to give back the same type of behavior that was first given to us. And in the context of compliance, we cooperate more readily with people that we feel we owe something to. And so in business, we've taken that as in okay, we got to give people stuff, right? So you go to the supermarket, you get a piece of cheese, sausage, yogurt, whatever it is, right? And the data is very clear, right? When the supermarket gives stuff away, they make more sales. What I find fascinating with that is that even if you don't like the cheese or the sausage or the yogurt, it doesn't matter, still works. You buy more of something else because it's not about the cheese, it's about the behavior. You were kind to me, and I now need to reciprocate and be kind to you. Now, that sounds simple enough, but in business people get this wrong all the time. And let me give you an example. A lot of people, and I would bet a lot of therapists do this as well. They have a uh, let's say a downloadable ebook that they have on their website, right? So, and you know, think, you know what, we're gonna give this ebook away, right? And then that'll activate reciprocity, people will like us more and cooperate with us more. And I'm not saying it's a bad strategy, but it doesn't actually activate reciprocity when it's done in this way, which is typical. Normally people say, hey, we've got a wonderful e-book, just put your name in your email address, we'll send you the download link, our gift to you. Nice try, but that won't activate reciprocity. Reciprocity comes when something is given, a gift. And it doesn't need to be tangible, it can be intangible. But a gift is something that's given without a requirement needing to be met. In case of the downloadable ebook, it was name an email address first, then we'll send you the download link. So it wasn't a gift, it was a reward. And so the people receiving it might appreciate the information, but they don't feel they owe you something. They feel they paid for that ebook with their email address. So when it comes to the power of reciprocity, you're completely missing the boat. Now, how could you do that in a smarter way or combine it in two approaches? You might be uh a nutritionist. And so you could have an e-book and have that as a lead generator, because of course it's nice to catch people's email addresses and communicate with them, but it doesn't activate reciprocity. So maybe in addition, you could make, let's say, a one-page checklist, right? And say, let's listen, if you're trying to uh, I don't know, avoid diabetes in the future, or if you want to uh you know have a healthier prostate going into the future, these are the 15 things from a nutrition perspective that you should not fail to implement in your life, right? Valuable tips of information. And you can have that on your website, but no name and email address required. You can say just right-click and download our gift to you. Now it's a piece of cheese. Right? Now, when this is valuable, this reciprocity is sitting in the situation and it lasts for a long time, reciprocity. And so maybe a month later, when you go, hey, we've got a webinar on, come join us. You're gonna be empowered by that reciprocity sitting in the situation. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 29:55

That does. And you know, I have a question on that too, with the because I like the idea. You give away the the PDF checklist. Would it work with the reciprocity work by adding at the bottom of the checklist? Like, here's our ebook if you want to opt in. So it's almost like the there, or is it better to just leave it hanging with nothing? Because I mean, that to me, what you're talking about is we've gifted this to you. Now they're gonna want to reciprocate by giving us their email for the ebook, and then we can stay in touch. Is that yeah, I think that's perfectly fine if you do that well.

Liking And Genuine Connection

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Yeah, if you you know, hey, if you'd like to know learn even more, uh you know, you can download our ebook. Uh, I don't see a problem with that. No, that's perfectly fine. It's it's about that checklist was given without me having to do anything, right? You gave that to me and not even asking for my email address. Wow, aren't you nice? Right? And so now we it's it's like an emotional bank account that sits there. And and we've been trained as children that you know, do not take without giving in return, right? And grandma does something nice for us. We go, wasn't that nice from grandma? Now what are we gonna do for grandma, right? It's we grew up like this. Yes, so we don't want to seem to be taking something without giving in return. And so we go to great lengths when that emotional bank account is out of balance to to counter that. And actually, we we we tend to do a lot more to reciprocate, to make sure the other person feels reciprocated. A good and it's it's great that it works like that in our society.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah, it's like if a friend buys you lunch and then the next time you go out to lunch, you're like, I'm picking up the tab because you bought lunch last time.

Unity Through Co-Creation

Social Proof And Similarity

Authority Without Sounding Boastful

SPEAKER_01 31:26

That's right, right? There's no argument about it, right? Yes, the person can't pay a second time, it's just not happening, right? Because yeah, yes, you don't want them to think of you like that. All right, let's move on. So, uh liking next principle. People like to do business or cooperate with people who they like, who like them, who like them and say so, and those who work towards a goal that you have. So there's quite a bit in there, can't cover everything today, but let's let's cover we like people that like us. Right? If you in sales, right, if you've ever done sales training, chances are that you've heard this concept that, well, if you're trying to sell me your services, then you should do what you can so that I like you. And whilst that is there's nothing wrong with that, it's not the most powerful. Think about it. If you're trying to sell me your therapeutic services, it's nice if I like you, but it would be more powerful if I got the feeling that you genuinely liked me. Because if you like me, you're gonna look after me, right? Because that's what we do with people that we like. So, and again, this gotta come from a genuine perspective, right? A genuine point. So, what we can do, especially as a therapist, people tend to book an appointment and then come see you a short time after. So, what's to stop you or your assistant or your VA to do a little research on that person? Most people have a social media feed, quite happily sharing stuff with the world about what they like. You could find out things that you have in common with those people or things that you value about them. I don't know, maybe they're a scuba diver and they go underwater and once a year they clean up the beaches, which I used to do when I uh scuba dive more actively, right? And you might be part of a walking group and you do the same thing in the forest. Right now you've got a value in common you can actually appreciate. You might even discuss it briefly in the first appointment. Um but now by you appreciating that person more, people sense that when they're with you. And that's how it's nice when this works genuinely and ethically. And that strengthens the relationship, the defenses go down, and they like you a lot more. Um, so there's a lot more to liking, but uh we'll we'll move on. Um yeah, very, very powerful dynamic. All right, unity is the next one. So unity was the last principle introduced by Dr. Cialdini in um 2015 after a lot more additional research. So unity is about a sense of community that we both feel part of. Um, so you know, sometimes you find out that someone you're dealing with, they grew up in the same suburb as you, right? And all of a sudden, well, you're best friends, right? As in, you know, you're you're you've got this favoritism towards each other. You can have that with the next person that walks into your clinic, but again, you have to do some homework. Another dynamic of unity is co-creation, which is a term you might have heard of. So this means working together with someone. And when you work together with someone on something, that creates more loyalty to each other. So instead of having a patient come in and say, Okay, well, you know, based on what you've told me, you should do this, this, this, and this, and this and this sort of order, right? I mean, you know, a lot of and it's also good, right? We convey what what our expertise says they should be doing. But if there's some flexibility in there, you could sit down with your patient and go, okay, now I've got a bit of a strategy in my head in terms of the exercise that you need to do or the the you know, the the food and the diet changes that you should be making. But I want to make sure that this is something that works in with your lifestyle. So let's have a little discussion about what you think you can implement where and at what pace and that sort of stuff. And you so ask them for their opinions and inputs, and together you put together a diet plan or something. Now, because you worked on it together, they'll be more loyal to you and the plan that was created. Now you can bungle that away by just putting in front of them what they should be doing, but if you co-create it, there's much more loyalty to it. Social proof. So we follow the leads of others, especially when they're numerous and similar to us. So we know that um testimonials are very powerful. So most businesses are now collecting those, which is great. Our consumer does know, however, that they're the most falsified piece of information in marketing, right? Because you can just write testimonials yourself, you can even pay people five dollars and they'll record a video testimonial for you, sadly. Um, but it does indicate how powerful that is. So in business, though, most while we have recognized it's powerful, we don't recognize that there's a whole dozen or so other strategies in which social proof can be used, which are equally powerful, and business don't use that at all. So let me give you an example, a little bit tweaked for your audience. So let's say that you um you have a particular uh treatment approach that you're recommending to your client. And let's say your client is a 35-year-old woman. Now you have a bung a bunch of testimonials from past patients who've done exactly what you're about to recommend, and they're happy with that, right? And they left your testimonial, and so you might have your five favorites, and so you might mention to your client or share that with them in a proposal, depending on how you do your business, the five testimonials of those patients that you really like, as in the testimonials you really like. But an amplifier of social proof is similarity, and so just try and feel with me this, right? So if I'm considering this treatment, and then you're presenting me with five testimonials of patients that have used you in the past and we're happy, then that's good, it's social proof. But let's say that's five testimonials of you know, a 35-year-old woman and a 35-year-old guy and a 65-year-old gentleman, and uh this 18-year-old young guy and uh I don't know, a 20-year-old woman or something. It's a bit of a mix of people. Now that's still good, still social proof. But now compare it with, you know, if you're a 35-year female, now compare it with being confronted with five testimonials from other 35-year-old women. You can feel it, right? You're going, these are just like me. And that makes that power social proof even more powerful. So that's an you know, if you've got a bit of a collection of testimonials, that's something your practitioners can easily use. Authority is next. So authority is or hinges on the rule that we tend to follow the advice of other people who have genuinely more knowledge and wisdom on a particular area. Um, but as I sort of alluded to in the beginning, if you turn up and say, hi, nice to meet you. My name is Patrick. Let me tell you the 35 reasons why you should listen to me. That actually backfires because the uh subconscious goes, you're full of yourself, right? So you lose authority and you lose unliking.

unknown 39:16

Right?

Consistency And One Powerful Question

Scarcity Without Lying

SPEAKER_01 39:16

So it's lose lose. You can't do that. So you must arrange for your audience to know or to hear about your expertise before you go face to face. And this is why, you know, when we, you know, if I'm on a stage and I'm delivering a keynote, I don't stand there explaining my background and my associations. There's an MC there that says, all right, everybody, you're in for a treat. We've got Patrick Vanderberg coming, who's a business partner, Dr. Robert Cialdini, da da da da, has been doing this for so long, right? That person is allowed to bring that up, and it doesn't make me look boastful, right? And then when I come up, my authority has been raised, and so everything I say will be processed with the gravity that it genuinely deserves, let's say. So your practitioners are in the exact same boat. Somebody might be on your website, make an appointment with you, turn up for that first appointment. But you cannot then explain why all the reasons why you have such expertise. And so the example earlier of putting all your certificates on the wall, that is socially acceptable. So if you have a practice where people visit you, those certificates should be on the wall. Whatever you've got, frame it nicely and put it up quietly. That's sitting there like, well, this person really knows their stuff, right? I mean, otherwise I wouldn't have all these certificates. So that's one way of doing that. Another thing to do, and um, I don't know why I'm sharing so much with your audience, by the way. Um let's say you've got somebody coming from a for a first appointment, you would probably send them an email as a reminder, right? As in your appointment is in two days, we look forward to meeting you. And uh you might send them a reminder 12 hours before or something like that. In that last email, you could put something along the lines of, hey, really looking forward to meeting you on Wednesday at uh 20 past 11. Uh now, just before you come to us, I've attached a little PDF with my background information and my credentials so you can understand where I'm coming from when it comes to nutrition, chiropractics, you know, whatever it is you do. And I hope you'll take a few minutes to peruse this information so you understand a little bit more where all this is coming from. And that is not considered boastful, that's socially acceptable. So by doing that way, you can raise your authority just before they walk through because people are curious, and there's a good chance they'll they'll have a look at it. So that's another strategy your audience can use. Authority is also about believability, which is fascinating, but we'll uh we'll do that another time. Um, then we've got two principles left consistency, people have feel an internal pressure to stay true with past actions and behaviors uh and statements that they've made. And so uh in in sales, we often ask people sort of qualifying questions, you know, what is important to you. And those are very those are very important to do, so that later when we come with our proposal and we've genuinely tailored that to what for them is important, it is then powerful to bring up, oh, you told us that you know it's important that we are available 24 hours a day. Well, I'm happy to say that you know the way we can look after you is that we have a service, that you can ring us 24 hours a day. Is there always someone there? Right? It's now much harder to say no to that proposal because well, you said that that was important to you, right? So consistency is very important. Um I don't know if you know, Craig, I have a podcast myself. It's called Ethical Persuasion Unlocked. And in episode eight, I've got the uh CEO of the Chaldini Institute as my guest, and uh Dr. Chris Phelps is a dentist. In that episode, he explains how a single question used in the patient intake form produced an increase of increase of case acceptance, which is what dentists call it when the patient goes, Yes, I will do what you're recommending, increase of case acceptance by 35.5%, I think it was, in across his four clinics with one question. And it was related to consistency. So go find that out in episode eight, ethical persuasion unlocked. Last principle is then scarcity. Um, we're very familiar with that, right? We when something is scarce, when something is dwindling in availability, we want it more. Um, now it also works in relation to things that are unique, things that we can't get anywhere else. So every practitioner listening to this is unique. There are things that you do that other people don't do. So when you raise that to the surface, then the value of you, the perception of that value increases. Also, when there's natural scarcity in the situation, you should make people aware of that. So let's say, you know, if you're a practitioner, you can only help so many patients per quarter, let's say. Well, you'd be silly not to mention that to everybody you talk to. Say, hey, I really I think we could do great work together. I'd love to take you on as a patient, but I should let you know I can only take on six. 16 clients per quarter, and we've got five more spots available. Right? That's natural, and you can't help an endless amount of people. So if that applies to you, you want to make people aware of that. And the fact that it is limited, again, makes them want it more. Because we're we're genetically trained to you know to look after our resources, right? It's great if we get more, but if you lose stuff that could be detrimental, so we pay a lot more attention to that. Those are the seven principles, uh great.

Case Study And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah, that makes sense. And even on that scarcity one, as you're talking, I was going back to what you were saying at the beginning, the questions to ask yourself and filter through. And it's you know, is it true? Uh I think I've had the temptation before because I've heard about you know, make scarcity, and I've been tempted to even use that. Oh, I only have you know a couple spots left when in reality we we don't. And so I've uh luckily went the ethical route, I didn't do it. But it's it is tempting to be, you know, to try and that would be a manipulation, I guess. I don't know. It's it's just a you know, I got one spot left. If you don't take it in the next day, it's gonna be gone. Uh, but when in reality I've got room for 10 more people, um, I I know that that's a temptation.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

And inevitably somebody's gonna take that last spot, and then their friend hears about your clinic, and then they ring up and they go, Can you fit me in? They go, Yeah, we can.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Right? And then they talk and then it explodes, right? It's not worth it. If you just learned a little bit of science, I mean it wasn't complicated what I covered today, right? Right, no. But the impact of this can be astronomical. Um I'll give you one more case study, which is sort of health-related. A psychologist did this, they looked at children being scared of dogs, right? And they this hinges on the principle of social proof. They got these kids that were petrified of dogs, they got them to watch another child of their age similarity play with a dog. Happily, you know, nice dog, you know, playing with the dog, patting it, scratching it, all that sort of stuff. After watching the child for a number of repetitions, let's say, um, after four days, they were asked if they wanted to play with the dog as well. And 67% of children that were petrified of dogs were happy to go play with the dog and even be left. The adult could leave the room, and they tested it like weeks later to see if the child was still not afraid of dogs, and it lasted because it's persuasion, it came from within them, right? Because the shortcut said, Well, if these other kids can play with dogs, I can play with dogs, right? So 76% um, sorry, 67, because I'm wrong, right? 67. Um, massive, massive impact just from using a little bit of social proof.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Wow, wow. Patrick, I've learned so much um from you, and you've been incredibly generous given all this information out. How can I reciprocate? How can our listeners reciprocate by finding you, seeing if there's uh a way to work with with you? Share how people can get in touch. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Well, uh obviously I have a website, easy to find ethicalpersuasion.com.au, um, because I'm based in Australia. Uh, as I mentioned, the podcast Ethical Persuasion Unlocked, so you can find that in all the usual places. Um, on our uh website, we have a uh downloadable ebook, no email required. All right. So it's uh it's a true griff, so you might find that uh helpful as well. And yeah, in terms of of learning more, or you know, if you'll take my uh my my input on it, it's it's nice to listen to a webinar like this, and it inspires and it excites, and hopefully you get a couple of nuggets out of it that you'll you'll use. But even listening to a webinar or reading an ebook, it's not gonna develop application skills and confidence. You need some formal training to do this. And given the expense of, let's say, employees that you might have to do formal training with them is it's really a small investment, but the impact is uh is dramatic, which is why you know Fortune 500 companies all love Dr. Cialdini's uh work and you know leading educational institutions like Harvard refer to his work. Um so it is this is considered by the World Economic Forum now as the third most urgent skill that employers should develop in their in their employees. So if what you've heard today is new to you or it's not new to you, but when you look at your own brochures and your website and how you talk to people, you if you're not actually using it, you're still losing every single day. And so do some reading, do some listening, get excited. Um, but yeah, if you want to make a change, then you know get in contact with us. We have courses, we can do keynotes for associations and businesses and so on. So uh happy to work with anybody uh in whichever way they like.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Thanks for joining us on the Therapy Business Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a practice owner that you may know. If your practice needs help getting organized with finances or just growing your practice, head to therapybusinesspod.com to learn how we can help you.